politicalalison: I've just got back from Scotland. In th

politicalalison (

politicalalison) wrote,
@ 2005-07-07 19:50:00

I've just got back from Scotland. In the end our train was allowed to come to Euston. There was about 300-400 police to meet us. The phrase "Haven't you got anything better to do?" has never seemed more apt.

Today's events are tragic. War is a terrible thing. In war terrible atrocities take place. Our country has now been at war for the last two and a half years. Did any of us really think it would be a totally one sided war? Our troops, with our money, have been doing this every day now for two and a half years. Imagine not 34 dead but 100,000 at a conservate estimate (because this does not include the death toll of Fallujah). It makes me want to rage. The lives of ordinairy londoners , Iraquis, Afghans and Palestinians are all precious - why do we give wall to wall news coverage of some and ignore that of others? More than ever I want the troops home now, Israel out of Palestine and an end to the bloody madness.

I'm sure there will be peace vigils for all war dead over the weekend. I would think the Stop The War website would have details.

Lots of love xxx

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	the_waheys 2005-07-07 01:27 pm UTC (link)
	I completely agree, even with my somewhat limited knowledge. I just wish that the Iraqi lives that have been lost were as precious to people as the British death toll. Its all such a mess. Helen xxxx (Reply to this)

	mayer_n 2005-07-07 01:46 pm UTC (link)
	And the Indonesians out of Bali, the Saudis out of Riyadh and Egyptians out of Cairo. Fight The Power. My sisters are in Tel Aviv now, if we're lucky they'll be bombed on bus tomorrow hastening their departure making "Palestine" Judenrein sooner rather than later. (Reply to this)(Thread)

politicalalison
2005-07-07 01:58 pm UTC (link)

Mayer, you know perfectly well that I do not wish any harm to ordinairy people anywhere or praise suicide bombers. You also know that I don't think there can be any peace in the middle east until the state of Israel stops illegally occupying Palestine.

Never have I at any point supported individual terrorism. I don't, I am a Trotskyist. My only point is to suggest that if imperialist, or wannabe imperialist, powers stopped bombing and illegally occuping other people's countries there might be more chance of peace. To suggest that I think otherwise is frankly, a fucking disgrace.

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mayer_n
2005-07-07 02:10 pm UTC (link)

Alison, those who bombed London today would never use a phrase such as "Israel out of Palestine", it is contrary to their worldview.

To use that phrase implies that you mean "Israel should cease occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip [Palestine]".

But as you well know, Al-Qaeda (if indeed they are responsible for today's attack) view "the occupation" as Jewish Presence not only in Gaza and the West Bank, but also in Haifa, Tel-Aviv, Jaffa, West Jerusalem, Eilat and so on.

To imply that complete and total withdrawal of all Jews from 100% of Gaza and the West Bank would in *any way* result in a cessation of murder by those responsible for today's attack is disengenious, and confuses the moral waters inwhich we are treading.

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	politicalalison 2005-07-07 02:15 pm UTC (link)
	No, they didn't say it. I did. I don't think there should be any religous states in the world. I think there should be secular states where all religons live side by side. This happens all over the world. I think Israel complying with the UN Resolutions would be a start though. That is all. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

mayer_n
2005-07-07 02:45 pm UTC (link)

Alison, here is an alphabetical list of 58 religious states in the world (57 members of the Organization of Islamic Conference and Israel).

Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Benin, Brunei, Burkina, Cameroon, Chad, Comoros, Cote d’Ivoire, Djibouti, Egypt, Gabon, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Mozambique, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, "Palestine", Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Surinam, Syria, Tajikistan, Togo, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Yemen.

To stick a pin in them repeatedly and come up with the same State again and again is a relative statistical impossibility.

Furthermore Israel is a Jewish state *where people of all religions in fact live side by side*, there are one million arab (Muslim, Druze and Christian, a *sixth* of the country's population) Citizens of Israel who have all the entitlements and rights of Jewish Citizens (with the exception of compulsory Army service, though many Druze choose to serve in the Army).

Further still, the Human Rights, Rights of Women and Civil Liberties records of over half of that list above not only makes Israel look like what it is (a flawed yet democratic and accountable State with the protection of Human Rights for all its Citizens), but by comparison it makes them look like a Moorian Utopia.

I've spoken to many Marxists, Trotskyites and Leninists on this subject, and have not yet discovered the reason for their blinkers allowing them to see only from the Mediterranean Sea to the Syrian-Jordanian border.

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	politicalalison 2005-07-07 02:55 pm UTC (link)
	Mayer, we aren't going to persuade each other are we? I presume however that you are not implying that I am an anti semite. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mayer_n 2005-07-07 03:03 pm UTC (link)
	Alison, we're not, and I am of course not implying you are an anti-semite. My greatest apologies if that's how my posts came across in the heat of the moment. I do clearly think that you are terribly, terribly mistaken in some of your opinions, and fearful of the long-term consequences of mass acceptance of these views for both London and the rest of the world. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	politicalalison 2005-07-07 03:31 pm UTC (link)
	Ok Mayer, let's just carry on the way we're going shall we because it's all going so well isn't it? I'm going to bed now. Night night. (Reply to this)(Parent)

lou55
2005-07-08 03:25 am UTC (link)

I just want to say that erm as I'll probably get shouted down because I dont know much about this whole subject but, it seems that both you Alison and Mayer have already assigned blame. You have absolutely no evidence to support it ... what you are saying about palestine etc (although important) may not be linked to this at all. I dont even think the G8 has anything to do with what happened why wouldnt they bomb Gleneagles if that was the case? Funny how it comes the day after we win the olympic bid. Coincedences are all over the shop but no evidence has been gathered yet. Getting our own back is not the answer either.

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	mayer_n 2005-07-08 04:35 am UTC (link)
	mayer_n: "But as you well know, Al-Qaeda (if indeed they are responsible for today's attack)" Though I've read 5 websites saying Mossad did it already. Olympic bid? I promise whatever happened that it took more than 20 hours to plan, and France were still favourite throughout the whole campaign. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

lou55
2005-07-08 06:42 am UTC (link)

you'd be surprised how easy and quick it is to make a bomb ... anyway i'm just trying to make you see that, to me when people go on about it like this it kinda helps to assign the blame ... the reasons behind this may not be anything to do with religion or a war - you never know until there's evidence - i was kinda just hoping you'd see that, before jumping the preverbial gun. I also fail to see why it matters who did it? What we gonna do to them - eye for an eye is bollocks so is turning the other cheek, achievement can only be sort through neogiation and conversation but really is that ever going to happen in the selfish society we live in.

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	mayer_n 2005-07-08 10:10 am UTC (link)
	Er... Sorry, I don't even understand what you've just written there. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

lou55
2005-07-08 02:24 pm UTC (link)

sorry train of thought simply explained (i hope) the way i read it was that comments were made that were explaining that retaliation is wrong but invitable however those sorts of comments sub-consciously assign blame. We have no evidence of who did it so currently we have no reason to defend (in any terms) anyone and their right to live.

I'm totally out of my depth really, I have very little knowledge of muslim, islamic or whatever countries outside of the people of that religion that I know or who live in my home town or current abode. I'm not going to blame anyone without evidence and would hope the rest of the world feels the same way. (I know this wont happen but it's a nice opinion to have).

All I know of bombings and wars are what I've been through as a young woman of irish decent growing up in birmingham after the birmingham bombings... all i know is how horrible it is to be personally blamed or people jumping to my defence everytime a bomb goes off that MIGHT be attributed to the IRA or someother related group.

er ... does that make sense?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	frolix_n_bollix 2006-08-21 11:49 pm UTC (link)
	...and it is a year later and things are incomprehensibly worse. And heading for hell in a handcart. How the fuck did this happen? It happened because all parties are using fear as their weapons. Fear ripens and spreads (with apologies to Roland Barthes). There is no end to this war. (Reply to this)

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